Started by Callan S., January 19, 2008, 07:31:06 PM
Quote'I'll seem important, but it might not change the end that much'
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 20, 2008, 02:14:52 PMThe GM "has a story" which is allegedly pretty damned brilliant, even if it's mostly composed of visiting places and seeing yet another "thing" in each one (a hag? cool. a high mountain? cool. goblin bandits? cool. a donkey? cool?). I think you posted about that before, something about griffins and other monsters just sort of nestled in prep-space for the player-characters to see, one after the other. Meanwhile, the players are engaged in a sort of trivial semi-Gamism, which as you say becomes more about minor I-shoved-you rights, based on meaningless crap like dice outcomes (especially with a high Whiff Factor), rather than any kind of actual or consequential challenge. Each unit of such play is effectively independent and bobs, inconsequentially, on the sea of the aforementioned "story." However, everyone pretends it's real Gamism and that that's the point of play; to do this, their prioritized moments and minor rewards become more and more juvenile.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 20, 2008, 02:14:52 PMHere's the weird thing to me: if Participationism is the desired process, why bother with all that silly low-level competitive noise? Why keep pushing the buttons which, in a lot of D&D play, do a fine job of prompting intra-party conflict and thus provide a valuable nuance to the genuine Gamism? (example: my guy is evil so he whips the elf chick; who's gonna try to stop me, and how is that gonna affect our team tactics in the next fight or the treasure-divvying after it?) Whereas here, it's merely distracting, at most the opportunity to grin 'round the table about being sooo evil.
Quote from: Callan S. on January 19, 2008, 07:31:06 PMSo in yet another way there's no big question, because the GM is only offering breadcrumbs to string out play - there's no change in dynamic, we may as well have been sent by Yaztromo to beat these guys and get exactly the same stuff.
Quote from: Callan S. on January 19, 2008, 07:31:06 PMIs this what drives this petty manouvering when there is no win or lose in their game? You know, I'm pretty sure I can find the words which will shank this, while not leaving a ripple at the social politeness level. Or I'll just not play those games. Either's good.
QuoteThat's the end of that game. Poor Bourke though - Chris brought up that he wanted to run a game of star wars.
QuoteWhy bother to take the guy into the kitchen? Clearly it's all about how the BBG is getting Matt's character on his side for the Secret Party Betrayal Character Story (tm). So your desire to talk to it has to get shut down - the plan is for you all to talk to it, but not until Matt gets to in private, so anything you say about talking to it before that can't be permitted to enter the SIS. But again, why bother? Can't we ... you know ... participate in the "Matt's gonna betray us!" storyline?
QuoteAgain, this isn't about ripping on people for being stupid role-players, it's about looking at a true mental tangle. It's about keeping the trappings of Gamism without any of its guts. It's about wanting a "story" and being willing to step all over people's actual engagement in play in order to promote yet another repetition of a boring, hackneyed, well-known, and predictable semi-story. It's about constantly looking up the rules and yet maintaining a weird social space in which disallowing various rules is a particular person's purview. The question is why any of this stuff is perceived as how we do things, and why it continues to be done, repetitively. I am convinced it has everything to do with the same fallacies that govern gambling: Whoa! This time, it was almost fun! OK, OK, here it comes, I'll try it again, just like last time .... damn! Almost fun, again! Well, I'm not giving up. I'm all about fun. Here we go, here it comes, gonna get ready, OK, OK, almost there ...
QuoteOne last thing: geez, that ninja really blows. Is it really that bad a rules combo? Or were you pretty much just screwed by the whiff?
QuoteOne really last thing: you know that play of this kind almost always requires a butt person at the table, right? As in, the butt of the joke?
QuoteThis intrigues me on a very practical level. What sorts of things do you imagine you'll say to "shank" the petty playground maneuvering without making a scene? 'Cause I certainly haven't figured that one out. . .your little sarcastic dialogue with yourself as the opportunity to speak up passes you by is a frequent and familiar one. Anyway, the stuff you did say sounded right on the money, and the "who decides when the rule is used?"
QuoteChris can run a game where you won't gain any gear, but it isn't the default assumption when playing D&D. If you want gear out, state it up front and figure out how it's going to change the game (casters rule even more). You want to play gear-less D&D? Tell the players it's gonna be gear-less D&D and not default D&D!
QuoteUse the rest of your money to get cheap poison that has paralyzation or uncounsciousness as initial damage because half measures and secondary effects are worthless in combat. Drow poison is perfect, otherwise Carrion crawler brain juice. Or even better: use Craft (poisonmaking) to make it yourself.
Quote from: Callan S. on January 22, 2008, 05:39:38 PM"who decides when the rule is used?" doesn't really cut to the bone, even if I said it. Because any old answer could be given and if I stop playing - there's no logical connection there as to why I stopped. Perhaps a moral code thing, but no logical connection.
Quote from: Callan S. on January 22, 2008, 05:39:38 PMHowever, politely asking "Oh, so method X is part of this game? Ah, didn't realise, sorry about that, my mistake I didn't mean to join a game with that. I'll just head out and watch some DVD's"