Started by Courage75, August 18, 2009, 11:52:53 PM
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 19, 2009, 03:58:34 AMIf you get twitchy because all werewolves are supposed to be able to regenerate, you might wish to emphasize that they all do and it's just that the other players have not decided to emphasize this mechanically. They all survive great injuries and are on their feet for the next scene, even if their Harm track gets fuller and fuller. This is actually much more fun than having the character be very immune to Harm mechanics; you might wish to think of the Harm as a semi-abstract gauge for how close the character is to his dramatical breaking point instead of staring intently at whether his physiology should or shouldn't be able to handle the stresses put upon it - ultimately it's pretty arbitrary when we as storytellers decide that a something like a werewolf has gotten "injured enough" for it to actually affect him. In dramatic terms something like regeneration is really almost just pure descriptive color: instead of dodging damage the character can take more of it, and it just doesn't matter to him as much. Something as simple as taking a defensive action with Endure (V) can easily be seen as the regeneration in action: the character sure got hit by a car, but it doesn't matter to his robust physiology as much as it would for somebody else.
Quote from: Courage75 on August 24, 2009, 12:50:50 AMI take your point about modelling werewolf regeneration as being more abstract in SS. However, does this mean that whenever a werewolf character takes Vigour Harm, I have to consider whether it what level it would be for a werewolf as opposed to a human? In other words, should I: (a) reduce the level of Harm depending on its source (e.g. getting punched by a human only does Minor Harm, but getting clawed by a werewolf does Major Harm)? Or (b), is this implict in the description behind the Harm? For example, if a werewolf suffers Major Harm from a human using Brawl(V), then the human inflicted Harm that would usually be enough to Incapacitate a human, such as a broken arm/leg rather than a single punch, but thanks to the resilence of the werewolf, it is taken as Major Harm. Also, it could have been a flurry of brutal punches and kicks rather than a single, lucky punch.
QuoteI really like the Secret of Lupine Regeneration. I am thinking for giving it to all werewolf characters as an innate Secret, since I think it captures the regeneration advantage werewolves have over mortals and other supernaturals. Just to be clear, though, would a werewolf be able to use this Secret during extended conflict?
QuoteSo, essentially you are saying that a werewolf character can happily stroll around with a Harm Track filled up to Mortal and not visibily be any worse for wear until he takes another level of Harm, whereas a human might look like she is on the verge of collapse from pain/anguish/exhaustion. That's cool and very fitting with the setting fiction.
QuoteYes, your proposed shapeshifting mechanics are quite radical and I am not entirely sure I understand them. Here is what I can gather so far:
QuoteI like the idea of a separate character sheet for Urhan that the PC can build upon, but have to say, this strikes me as a lot of bookkeeping whenever a PC changes forms! Given that a PC might change froms around three or four times in an extended conflict, this could get too fiddly, especially with all those instant Advances flying around needing to be spent on something.
QuoteIn that respect, I think I prefer a more static mechanic of bonuses in different forms, much like different martial art styles. Maybe I just need to shave down a few of the bonuses and add a few obligatory Secrets?
QuoteI do like the Secret of Equipment idea. I'll also have to check out the new TSoY for all those new equipment rules and stuff on animals/wolf-men. Any chance of providing a sneak peak of them here (if you haven't done so already)?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 24, 2009, 06:49:44 AMThere are two ways for characters to suffer Harm.
Quote from: Eero TuovinenQuoteI really like the Secret of Lupine Regeneration. I am thinking for giving it to all werewolf characters as an innate Secret, since I think it captures the regeneration advantage werewolves have over mortals and other supernaturals. Just to be clear, though, would a werewolf be able to use this Secret during extended conflict?I imagine he would, although whether it requires an action and whether it works on a time-scale of seconds or minutes would depend on how you view the fiction, exactly. Also, I'd up the cost of using it to 2 Vigor when the Secret is used in extended conflict if it doesn't require an action to use: you should have to pay for messing up the dramatic clock like that.
Quote from: Eero TuovinenThe actual dramatic rhythm is the same for everybody, though: dramatically it makes no sense to give somebody extra fight scenes just because he's difficult to injure. (Which is what it amounts to when you allow characters to heal Harm levels they've suffered) You'll note that action movies do not usually go into 15-minute segues where the hero punches a brick wall to get it to give in; miraculously those brick walls instead crumble instantly when appropriate, thus affirming that they aren't really interesting enough as opposition to spend several rounds of fighting time with.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 06:03:51 AMAggravated Harm is marked as such on the Harm track, is not associated with any Pools and does not settle down after an extended conflict like Harm normally does. A character has to make some sort of healing check to transform aggravated Harm into normal injuries before it can be feasibly healed by natural healing.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 06:03:51 AMI'd probably allow regeneration checks during extended conflicts as long as the cost was similar to the cost of natural healing - more than one Pool point, definitely.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 06:03:51 AMFor Essence, I'm not vincing; I could use a similar mechanic myself. However, I do recognize that the balance problems you're having with the system are partially due to how you've included a lot of mechanical stuff that has been introduced wholesale and provided for the player characters free of Advance cost. This way of introducing crunch obviates the normal, organic balance SS mechanics have, so it's no wonder if you encounter all sorts of small balance issues as things settle down.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 06:03:51 AMThe way you describe Essence makes it sound like it'd work in a simpler and more elegant manner as a normal Effect: whenever the character participates in essence-gathering just have him check some suitable Ability to see how much Essence he holds and can expend later on.
Quote from: Eero TuovinenHuman form has no bonuses or penalties.Near-man gets a bonus die to all wolfy things.Wolf-man gets a bonus die to all physical activities and two bonus dice to combat; however, he pays 1 Vigor for all Ability checks he makes.Dire wolf gets the wolf effect and a bonus die to violent and brutal actions.Wolf form gets to swap Ability ratings between wolfy and human-y Abilities equal to the character's transformation check, moving good ratings into things a wolf could use and vice versa.It's similar to your original vision, but reduces the number of dice involved to manageable levels.
Quote from: Klaus_Welten on August 25, 2009, 08:25:32 AMThis thread is going right into my favorites. Eero, your are my heero. :-P
Quote from: Courage75 on August 25, 2009, 07:10:48 PMWow, Eero, that is exactly what I am after. Awesome! I think for my Werewolf game I will require PCs who take Aggravated Harm from silver to make a Primal Urge (V) check to convert it to normal Harm. This could only be done outside of an extended conflict and probably costs Vigour.Just out of curiousity, what circumstances inflict Aggravated Harm in World of Near?
QuoteThe way I have determined the Essence Pool is also convoluted. In the setting fiction, werewolves can acquire status with the spirit world which is called Renown. It comes in five types: Cunning, Glory, Honour, Purity and Wisdom. I made each type of Renown a trait ranked one to five. Having Renown provides intangible status benefits, such as spirits being slighty less hostile to the PC and bonus die for Instinct checks against other werewolves who have a lower total Renown.
QuotePretty convoluted, huh? I am thinking a more elegant way to handle Renown would be to make each Renown type an Ability. Maybe Cunning (I), Glory (V), Honour (I), Purity (V), and Wisdom (R), and then rate them from Mediocre (0) to Grandmaster (4). But maybe even this is too much?
QuoteBy "wolfy things" I assume you mean anything a wolf could do - track by scent, heightened hearing, howling, acting in a pack, dominating others (or being dominated), running, leaping, intimidating (through snarling/growling), etc?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 05:36:52 AMSurprisingly many things, when all is said and done. At least Three-Corner magic can do it; Vulfen bites that tear flesh and bone; professional goblin-slayers - coistrels - who learn to injure goblin anatomy; wooden weapons against moon-metal and moon-hearted men; Skironite combat magics against enemies rooted in the earth.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 05:36:52 AMRenown sure sounds like a bunch of Keys to me. That should work well if you let the players buy them as they would - giving them all to each of them for free is too much, doesn't leave the players with enough choice as to what their individual characters are about.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 05:36:52 AMSecret of PurityThe character is famed for his purity. A successful Status (I) check allows the player to establish that a given NPC is already familiar with his reputation when they first meet. The character can have one such check result as a free Effect at once, providing him with bonus dice to his dealings with spirits and others who care of his renown.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 05:36:52 AMThat's not impossible, but Abilities are a huge part of character identity - I wouldn't have such a large number of them unless you're spending lots of play time on the matter. Also, you have to be comfortable with what these personal virtue Abilities could or could not be used for in practical play if they're Abilities; I do have one culture in the new book that explicitly goes for virtue Abilities, but I do that in full cognisance of how different an approach that is compared to the default of Abilities representing real skills. Not something to do unthinkingly.
QuoteQuoteBy "wolfy things" I assume you mean anything a wolf could do - track by scent, heightened hearing, howling, acting in a pack, dominating others (or being dominated), running, leaping, intimidating (through snarling/growling), etc? Yeah, those sound like wolfy things to me.
Quote from: Courage75 on August 26, 2009, 07:17:21 PMSo the ability to deal Aggravated Harm is always determined by the situation, not the result of a check? For example, getting a result of 7 deals Aggravated Harm instead of requiring the PC to Transcend?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 27, 2009, 03:49:47 AMTranscendent checks are very rare and over-powered, so that wouldn't work too well. Rather, this sort of stuff is usually predicated on Secrets.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 27, 2009, 03:49:47 AMSecret of Troll-slayingGorenite coistrels have studied goblin anatomy and may cause them grievous injuries. When the character causes Harm to a goblin, that Harm is AGGRAVATED, marked accordingly on the Harm track. Such Harm does not shake down and cannot be healed naturally. Additionally, the goblin suffers penalty dice equal to the highest aggravated level of Harm to any use of his ADAPTATION (V) Ability until healed. Cost: 2 VIGOR