Started by Callan S., May 03, 2010, 07:29:32 PM
Quote from: Filip Luszczyk on May 04, 2010, 01:16:30 PMI'm still not sure whether they always have to be decided by someone. SMB aside, in D&D we don't decide how far from each other combatants stand. It's on the battle grid, we measure it, not decide.
Quote from: lumpley on May 04, 2010, 08:01:31 AMCallan, I'm with the woman in your example: yeah, someone decides. The DM in your game, with the cleric standing on the table? He decided.I don't represent the Forge in any strong way, but I can tell you my experience: I've never seen, here or anywhere, any assertion from anyone that your cleric or the table he's standing on are real.
Quoteyour tactical advantage depends upon details of your character's immediate circumstances.
Quoteand so it is now an inarguable part of the fiction until circumstances change.
QuoteYour agreed-upon framework for the game determined the existence of the table and its benefits. The only "set in stone" portion of this whole thing is the rule in the D&D book that states height advantage => +2. It's then up to the players to determine that existence and who has the credibility to firmly establish that (the GM, narrator, whatever).
QuoteTake your example of the bonus for height advantage, it is ultimately decided on by the gm but how does he decide to give it out? If he's not basing it on what's happening in the SIS then what does he decide it on, who he likes best? What color shirt someone is wearing? It's entirely arbitrary. It's only if we agree in our shared imagination that this character was here and that character was there and that gives this character an advantage do we have anything to base the decision on.
QuoteOnce upon a time you said "you can get a +2 bonus for having a height advantage". You also accepted it when I said "I back up the stairs". I can now claim that +2 bonus on the basis of prior agreement, just like the bet.
QuoteIn this way, we can return to the image of the cleric, the bar, and the table. If the SIS hasn't said anything about the existence of or the nature of the table, then now is when someone(s) (whoever has the authority) can decide about that nature, and whether it is enough to get the +2 height benefit. When someone suitably empowered says "no, that table doesn't give height advantage" what is really being said is that the relevant information about that has already been established.
QuoteI think what would help me most, Callan, is a specific example from an Actual Play post of someone labouring under this delusion. At the moment it feels a bit like we're gathering around to complain about the hypothetical behaviours of hypothetical people, which seems a bit counter-productive.
QuoteThe only definition of SIS that makes any sense to me is the fact that these people are speaking to one another and responding to one another's input as a basis for what they say next, and the topic happens to be fictional, or rather, fictional material in the making.
QuoteWhen someone says, "According to the SIS," or "Because of the SIS," or anything like that
Quote from: Callan S. on May 05, 2010, 12:03:43 AMYour confusing the issue one step early. Your car and it's position is a physically mesurable object. Switch it to this 'I'll give you ten bucks if your gods dick is longer than my gods dick'.
QuoteYou can't call someone on cheating when it comes to something you can't physically measure - not unless you want to start being a witch hunter.
QuotePeter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.A peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked.If Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers,Where's the peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked?
QuoteWhat is the rule on who decides whether you get +2? Is it you? If not, your breaking the rules.
Quote from: Callan S. on May 05, 2010, 12:03:43 AMHi Jim D.,Quoteand so it is now an inarguable part of the fiction until circumstances change.QuoteYour agreed-upon framework for the game determined the existence of the table and its benefits. The only "set in stone" portion of this whole thing is the rule in the D&D book that states height advantage => +2. It's then up to the players to determine that existence and who has the credibility to firmly establish that (the GM, narrator, whatever).And here we are at 'existance', when I'm assured no one at the forge is saying this exists. No, actually, people saying these 'things' exist is happening - here, for example.I mean, in the last line of your example, if the GM said 'Nah, no +2. Just roll' am I right that you'd argue NOT based on the idea he promised you +2, but instead you'd argue based on the idea the table exists, right? That it had been 'established'?It's like me saying I'll pay you for some bread you have, but only if A: You hand me the bread and B: lord Odin gives the nod. You ask if lord Odin is nodding. I say yes.So you hand me the bread. I give you no money. Then you start arguing lord Odin was nodding. No, he stopped nodding I say. You get angry because I'm cheating or suchlike.How do you determine cheating on such a matter, when there is no evidence? When it's just something locked away inside someones head?I mean, in every other boardgame or even sport, there is some physical object you can physically measure to determine a result of cheating or not.Do you really feel secure enough to call anyone a cheat on the existance of the established table/bonus given? It's a hard question.
Quote from: Callan S.This is perhaps a slightly different topic. But although there are a few things I'd examine with you thought experiment, I'll cut to this - machine code does not compute the words 'height advantage'. Go type that into a programming language compiler. It'll either spit out an error or ignore it entirely. Because it is not concrete - it has not been put into concrete numbers. Your idea that you can just be 'hardware' for 'height advantage' is incorrect - because even real hardware cannot be hardware for the words 'height advantage'. If I were to program it, it'd go something like "On collision, if x >= other.x-z bonustohit = 2;'. With Z as the ammount of pixels it has to be higher than the other object. How many pixels?
QuoteHardware cannot and does not decide this. Your blurring human artistic choices and pure procedural following into one (perhaps harmful) thing.
Quote from: CaldisIt's not quite that simple. Someone has to place the figures on the battle grid and move figures on or off of it so in the end someone is always deciding.