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Author Topic: Wuxia and TROS  (Read 6217 times)
Eamon Voss
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Posts: 108


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« on: May 27, 2003, 01:42:36 PM »

So we were watching Fist of Legend last night and I started thinking TROS is perfect for Wuxia style combat.  With that in mind, I put down the following concepts:

1. Don't even try to make a Wuxia TROS variant compatible with regular TROS.  The first is cinematic and the second is realistic.

2. Proficiencies would make for great martial art styles.  A southern chinese style would make punching and trapping manuevars cheaper than a northern style, which would focus on kicks.

3. Manuevars added would include different hand strikes and kicks.  Higher level hand strikes would include peircing and cutting attacks.  The difficulty of these moves would be based on the proficiency, much like how it is already in TROS.  The different techniques would have to bear colorful names.

4. Punches start at ST damage.  Kicks do ST+1 damage.  Armor isn't common, and provides no protective capability.  It is there for cosmetic effect only.

5. The counter chart would have to be modified, and probably each style would get their own counter chart.

6. Removed wrestling.  Wrestling just doesn't belong in a Wuxia game.  Or make it very easy to escape from.

7. Weapons would add a point of damage and change the length of an attacker.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Weapons would be more props than anything else.

8. Include a Chi spiritual attribute.

9. Getting knocked to the ground causes you to lose just 1 SP.

Some style ideas:

Hades Kick
Hwang Jang Lee from Drunken Master
Counter (2)
Double Kick (2) - Effectively a mass weapon as a kick
Evasive Attack (2)
Hand Strike (2)
Hook (1)
Kick (0)
Parry (1)

Snake Style
Generic HK movie style
Counter (2)
Evasive Attack (2)
Hand Strike (0)
Hook (1)
Kick (2)
Parry (0)
Peircing Hand Strike (1) - Does peircing damage

Tai Chi Jet Li Style
Jet Li's Tai Chi style from Tai Chi/Twin Warriors
Counter (0)
Evasive Attack (1)
Hand Strike (1)
Hook (1)
Kick (1)
Parry (0)

Ubiqitious Drunken Style
Counter (0)
Evasive Attack (0)
Hand Strike (1)
Hook (1)
Kick (1)
Parry (0)

Comments?  Criticisms?  Personal Attacks?
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2003, 02:03:17 PM »

Eamon,

You might want to search through the forum. There was once before a thread called "Wuxia TROS", where such things were discussed (to what extent I can't tell you, since I didn't really read it) that you might find useful while you're thinking of such things.

Regards,
Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Jake Norwood
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2003, 03:33:47 PM »

I actually really like what you're doing with it thus far, being a monster Jet Li fan ever since I first saw Fist of Legend.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Eamon Voss
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2003, 04:18:42 PM »

Thanks Jake (and Brian too).

I like the core TROS mechanic.  Which in Eamon-speak is a two-phase dice pool with determinate initiative.  Which is basic enough to translate to any method of conflict where sustained attack is part of the genre.  Translated into this concept, when Jackie Chan is dodging around madly, it is because he has lost the initiative.  Or when a protagonist/antagonist gets a long string of blows in, it is because he has the initiative.

One of the reasons why I think HK cinema is so popular, is this control of the initiative.  Combat has ebb and flow, and is not the trading of strikes like as is portrayed in any Van Damme movie, or one sided counters like a Seagal movie.  Martial arts are arguably secondary to this dynamic depiction of fighting and initiative control, which is why Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Matrix are so popular.  The skill of the fighters is technically not that good, but the control of the 'dynamic energy' is beyond par.  Yuen Ping Woo (and Donnie Yen) are masters of this technique.

Anyway, proficiencies in TROS are effectively martial arts styles.  The manuevars were obviously originally designed to take the weight and characteristics of the weapons in mind.  What I have written has merely continued in that vein, taking the core proficiency concept and translating it to another medium.  So I am not re-inventing the wheel, rather repainting it.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Amy1419
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Posts: 25


« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2003, 04:23:49 PM »

I'm not sure if I am doing this correctly but I believe the link to that other thread is http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4915&highlight=wuxia

It was by Shadeling and I believe had over 20 posts to it.
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Eamon Voss
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Posts: 108


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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2003, 06:09:27 AM »

Quote from: Amy1419
I'm not sure if I am doing this correctly but I believe the link to that other thread is http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4915&highlight=wuxia


One thing that I am not a fan of is having complicated rules for movement, especially in a Wuxia ruleset.  In Wuxia style movies, movement is fast and dynamic.  We don't see the twenty Chinese labor guys pulling on wires, we see the end result.  A complicated ruleset provides nothing in the way of the dynamism of Wuxia style combat, even if it does somehow faithfully reproduce the genre.

Anyway...

My movement system would be to allow the standard TROS movement for a character, but in three dimensions.  So if Jake and I are fighting and I decided I can get an advantage by leaping onto a telephone that is 15 above my head, I just use 5 TROS Move units and I'm there.  My opponent is forced to follow me.  No balance roles for either of us.  Simple as that.  No need for silly vaguaries.  

Of course, what benefit do I get for jumping there.  Well, since I picked a neat, imaginative spot, I get a +1 CP bonus for the first round I am up there.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Ashren Va'Hale
Member

Posts: 427


« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2003, 12:06:12 PM »

I think you are on to something here, in stead of "realism" dictating bonuses, "cinematic flare" would. That would really be fun. The example you gave was perfect for this! It would be so fun to have a game where players are rewarded by making their combat cinematic  with bonus cp dice.
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Philosophy: Take whatever is not nailed down, for the rest, well thats what movement is for!
Eamon Voss
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Posts: 108


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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2003, 12:19:23 PM »

I have just figured out a way to handle better wuxia-style movement.  A combat would go thusly:

1. At the start of combat, characters would declare initiative and stay in place.

2. After that, if initiative is lost, the loser of initiative can choose a neat spot nearby to leap to, and get a +1 CP bonus for the leap if the spot and method is good within the wuxia context.  Within reason, the defender can define the environment.

3. The attacker then follows to that location, and can get a +1 CP bonus of their own by building upon the choice of the defender.  Within reason, the defender can define the environment.

4. Counters cause movement only when a blow is struck during the seizing of initiative, to represent the knockback from such an attack.

Example:

Jade Princess is fighting Slimy Toad.  At the start of the fight, Slimy Toad leaps to the attack and siezes the initiative.  A flurry of punches and kicks later and Jade Princess manages to sieze the initiative back.  Slimy Toad, hoping to recoup some of the loss of the initiative, leaps on top of a fence and gets a +1 CP bonus.  Jade Princess follows, but decides to land on a signpost in order to get her own +1 CP bonus.

But Slimy Toad performs a counter, and his counterblow hits Jade Princess.  Her player elects to have her move across the street and onto a fruit cart.  Even though she took a level 2 injury from Slimy Toad's strike, she got a +1 CP bonus for landing on a fruit cart.  Slimy Toad follows, but his declaration of landing on the oranges of the fruit cart doesn't cut it.  He does not get a +1 CP bonus.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Valamir
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2003, 01:47:19 PM »

Not bad Eamon.  How about integrating that with the Terrain roll mechanics.

Off the cuff:  The loser of initiative must make a Terrain Roll to perform the defensive leap.  The result of this roll (in some fashion) determines the target number for the Terrain Roll the attacker would have to make in order to pursue.

If the attacker makes the roll than they can pursue and engage (albiet at fewer dice)
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Eamon Voss
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Posts: 108


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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2003, 02:10:12 PM »

Quote from: Valamir
Not bad Eamon.  How about integrating that with the Terrain roll mechanics.

Off the cuff:  The loser of initiative must make a Terrain Roll to perform the defensive leap.  The result of this roll (in some fashion) determines the target number for the Terrain Roll the attacker would have to make in order to pursue.

If the attacker makes the roll than they can pursue and engage (albiet at fewer dice)


I thought about it, but how often do people fighting in Wuxia have problems with terrain issues?  Better to just remove terrain rolls, except for fights when one person is fighting 2 or more named characters.  

Remember, the only thing we need to preserve is TROS' core mechanic.  Anything else is window dressing.  Besides, too many additional rolls slows things down.  TROS is elegant in that the number of rolls made is kept small per action resolution.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Bladesinger
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Posts: 8


« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2003, 11:04:36 PM »

You!...... Your Fu is weak!.......I...have slain your Master...........destoyed your school.....and ...scattered its deciples.. to the four corners of the kingdom....where they cower still! (mouth still moving ,but no words) ....You want to fight?...you fight me!......You dishonor my family...now you die!   (stances,followed by dramatic pause and stares)....OK....I've herd enough of you......we fight now!(sounds like bamboo being broken over an old mans knee).............
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BLARG!....................Eddie
Eamon Voss
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Posts: 108


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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2003, 10:09:26 AM »

Quote from: Bladesinger
You!...... Your Fu is weak!.......I...have slain your Master...........destoyed your school.....and ...scattered its deciples.. to the four corners of the kingdom....where they cower still! (mouth still moving ,but no words) ....You want to fight?...you fight me!......You dishonor my family...now you die!   (stances,followed by dramatic pause and stares)....OK....I've herd enough of you......we fight now!(sounds like bamboo being broken over an old mans knee).............


I will take this as a mark of enthusiasm for this project.  Which I hope to playtest later this week.  Cheers.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
Valamir
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Posts: 5574


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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2003, 10:27:00 AM »

Quote from: Eamon Voss

I thought about it, but how often do people fighting in Wuxia have problems with terrain issues?  Better to just remove terrain rolls, except for fights when one person is fighting 2 or more named characters.  

Remember, the only thing we need to preserve is TROS' core mechanic.  Anything else is window dressing.  Besides, too many additional rolls slows things down.  TROS is elegant in that the number of rolls made is kept small per action resolution.


Terrain rolls are far more flexible than that.  Don't let the term "Terrain" fool you.  You can use them any time there is an obstacle (such as someone leaping away), that would interfere with your ability to make an attack.

Frex...

1)Terrain Roll Target Number for pursuing an enemy who just leaped away is 5.
2) A Character Makes a Defensive Leap.  They choose how many dice out of their CP they wish to use.  TN = whatever...an appropriate skill or something.  1 success = defense Leap succeeded.  Each additional success increases TN from #1 by 1.  3 successes are rolled.
3) The attacking character wishes to pursue.  This requires a Terrain Roll.  The TN is base 5 plus 2 extra from #2 above or 7.  The attacking character chooses how many dice from his CP to dedicate to pusuit.  1 success is necessary.  Additional successes increase the TN of the defender's next Defensive Leap (a little extra chrome).
4) If the pursuit was successful than the attack is launched normally, just as if the leap was never made, only now in a new location.  The defender may Defensive Leap again at a higher TN returning to #2 and going through it again.
5) This can continue until someone is out of dice and cannot leap away or pursue any more.  You get a whole Crouching Tiger chase across the bamboo tops simply by applying the Terrain rules.
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Eamon Voss
Member

Posts: 108


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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2003, 07:28:18 AM »

Quote from: Valamir
Quote from: Eamon Voss

I thought about it, but how often do people fighting in Wuxia have problems with terrain issues?  Better to just remove terrain rolls, except for fights when one person is fighting 2 or more named characters.  

Remember, the only thing we need to preserve is TROS' core mechanic.  Anything else is window dressing.  Besides, too many additional rolls slows things down.  TROS is elegant in that the number of rolls made is kept small per action resolution.


Terrain rolls are far more flexible than that.  Don't let the term "Terrain" fool you.  You can use them any time there is an obstacle (such as someone leaping away), that would interfere with your ability to make an attack.

Frex...

1)Terrain Roll Target Number for pursuing an enemy who just leaped away is 5.
2) A Character Makes a Defensive Leap.  They choose how many dice out of their CP they wish to use.  TN = whatever...an appropriate skill or something.  1 success = defense Leap succeeded.  Each additional success increases TN from #1 by 1.  3 successes are rolled.
3) The attacking character wishes to pursue.  This requires a Terrain Roll.  The TN is base 5 plus 2 extra from #2 above or 7.  The attacking character chooses how many dice from his CP to dedicate to pusuit.  1 success is necessary.  Additional successes increase the TN of the defender's next Defensive Leap (a little extra chrome).
4) If the pursuit was successful than the attack is launched normally, just as if the leap was never made, only now in a new location.  The defender may Defensive Leap again at a higher TN returning to #2 and going through it again.
5) This can continue until someone is out of dice and cannot leap away or pursue any more.  You get a whole Crouching Tiger chase across the bamboo tops simply by applying the Terrain rules.


Some interesting thoughts there, Valamir.
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Realism in a melee game is not a matter of critical hit charts, but rather the ability to impart upon the player the dynamism of combat.
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