Started by Joel P. Shempert, November 22, 2008, 12:08:07 AM
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 16, 2008, 10:49:18 PMThere's nothing in the text about cliches being silly or not silly, foreshadowed or not foreshadowed, or anything else. The numerous examples are generally descriptive and range from the very familiar to the thought-provoking. Graham's question was the right one - how did I, the GM in this case, organize "my discretion?" When the rules hand me the judgment call like this, I am a big believer in telling people what's on my mind, and finding out what's on theirs, because I don't like to start over case-by-case during play.
Quote from: JoyWriter on November 29, 2008, 10:00:40 PMTaking control of other people's relationships is something we've had problems with in the past. Because those npcs tend to reflect something fundimental to the character, and playing them wrong can totally set things the wrong way.The main trouble seems to be when players cannot express what it is about your portrayal that undermines their character, even after they see it, so veto doesn't work that well. It's too blunt an instrument, and our current GM is too sensitive and illusionist to take it well.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 30, 2008, 12:50:24 AMJoel, that sounds like one of the issues you ran into, but I think it's actually just a symptom.
Quote... we ended up rather at sea in a number of areas because of our careless approach to the game. I mean at every level: forming a play group, determining our aesthetic preferences, investing together in an SIS, learning the rules, etc.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 02, 2008, 01:56:14 PMI disagree that the failure of the game was due to the confluence of many factors, any of which would have been resolvable in isolation.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 02, 2008, 01:56:14 PMthe event arose very logically from the lack of buy-in in the first place.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 02, 2008, 01:56:14 PMFor a person in that situation, the only option is to rely only on certain specific other priorities: (a) what you didn't like and try to avoid based on previous play, (b) some Story Before you're making up, and (c) social priorites that aren't centered on play itself. I suggest that many of the instances you described in your post arise from this option in action. The weird thing is, it's not about blame! No one can be faulted for falling back on these things if they don't buy into the Color and Reward, because there's literally nothing else they can do.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 02, 2008, 01:56:14 PMI only have one more little point that may be more generally useful. As I see it, no one actually hates dice. Someone may well hate being marginalized by shitty systems, and in response, have mastered a particular strategy of play. This strategy is to control the events of play through narrating, such that dice either get elided, or they only affect things that won't be permitted to really change anything.
Quote1) What kinds of techniques are useful for facilitating buy-in in the first place?
Quote2) How might one go about teasing buy-in out of an existing, floundering game? Are you pretty much doomed, or are there reasonably reliable ways to put on the brakes and solicit buy-in once it is clear you don't have it (bearing in mind that you can't make anyone buy in and you may still fail)?
Quote3) It seems to me that there's an inverse principle to the necessity of buy-in: it's possible to be totally grooving on Color and/or Reward and have play still suck sour frog ass, because you don't know what to do with the Color or how to get to the Reward. In fact, I've been there many a time. I'm not sure if there's any cure that can be articulated though, any more specific than "know what you're doing and how to do it" (duh).
Quote from: Melinglor on December 03, 2008, 02:13:48 AM1) What kinds of techniques are useful for facilitating buy-in in the first place?
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 03, 2008, 11:37:25 AMThe trouble with your mermaids example is that it's Color only. I think that might be a major issue in the discussion. It worked in the Deathmatch case perhaps because the author of a game is often skilled at conveying understanding of Reward very quickly during play.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 03, 2008, 11:37:25 AMI dunno. I suppose one should simply have the Color + Reward get-together at that point and see if it's possible to re-start in those terms, without having the fiction itself re-start. I haven't been in that situation because I'm typically willing to let the current game die and try something else. Then again, we usually start with that process anyway, so if we and the game aren't working out together, then we're sort of past that particular repair.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on December 03, 2008, 11:37:25 AMInterestingly, I have no idea what you're talking about. To me, "totally grooving on" means actually doing it with everyone else doing it too, which negates your point entirely, so that must not be what you mean by it. Do you mean "anticipating" or "hoping," or maybe do you mean "individually/privately?" I'd like to know about one of your many times in detail in order to understand what you mean at all, especially the inverse principle.