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General Forge Forums => Independent Publishing => Topic started by: David Berg on February 25, 2008, 01:14:07 AM

Title: page size questions
Post by: David Berg on February 25, 2008, 01:14:07 AM
I've just ported my game text (still being revised) into Adobe InDesign to work on some presentation issues, and I figure it might save me some hassles down the road if I finalize a page size early on in my layout work.

I am tentatively planning to publish via Lulu at first, and then if I think I can sell more than a handful of copies, talk to another printer later to get better per-unit prices.

Lulu has a couple weird page size options I am considering:
"A5" - 5.833" x 8.264"
"royal" - 6.139" x 9.21"
"comic book" - 6.625" x 10.25"

Does anyone have any idea if these sizes would be problematic (or cost me more) when dealing with subsequent printers?  I am not hugely opposed to doing the tried-and-true 6" x 9", but if there's no practical upside, it probably isn't my first choice.

I should also admit that I am largely ignorant of why an independent RPG publisher would pick one size over another besides "I just like the way it looks."  Perspective on that front would also be appreciated!

Thanks,
-David
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Eero Tuovinen on February 25, 2008, 03:17:27 AM
This issue has many factors going into it, so there's not quick answer. For example, the reason I use A5 for the Finnish-language translated indie games we make is that A5 is a common size in Finland and familiar with Finnish printers, which makes it a bit cheaper than other options. These same factors wouldn't hold for you, however. Similarly I don't have to care about the rpg "standard size", as our publications are more likely to be found at a library or mainstream bookstore than a gaming store, considering how few of the latter there are in Finland.

Apart from that subjectivity there is the fact that a large reason for picking a particular book size is that you want to express the nature and use of your product with it: a small book is easy to transport and read everywhere, so it implies a product which you might want to read, but would not need to refer to so much during play. A large book might be large because it's easier to use for reference, or perhaps because it has pretty pictures and other aesthetic considerations on its side. A book might have a strange shape because it wants to just look different, or it might emulate some other form, like a comic book, in which case it makes sense to be the same size. My own zombie game, for example, is packed into a VHS cassette case exactly because the game purports to create movie-like zombie stories.

Your question about potentially problematic sizes for printers is a very good one. The standard answer is that a competent printer won't have any trouble with any size, which of course isn't that helpful if you happen to work with a non-competent one. Generally speaking, a small, cheap digital printer will prefer the standard sheet size, which in Finland is the A series; their cutting tools might not be very good, or their equipment might even be unable to print in other sizes. Of course, I couldn't tell you what are "standard" sizes for American printers, but I'd imagine that there would be some nigh-universal ones you'd expect anybody to be able to print. But apart from these potential problems with non-competent printers there shouldn't be much difference with different sizes; at most you'll have to pay slightly more for your book if the printer is forced to cut the pages with lots of paper loss because of the strange page size (which, as I mentioned above, is one reason for my sticking to A5 here in Finland).

If you have no particular preference for book size, I warmly recommend choosing some typical size. As a retailer I find it a bit annoying that often enough indie rpg sizes are all over the place, which makes stocking them a bit tricky. Pick some nice size that half a dozen other indies have already used, and the retailer will like you. (Not that I'd make my stocking decisions based on the book format, mind you.)
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Clinton R. Nixon on February 25, 2008, 06:37:50 AM
David,

The "comic book" size is not uncommon, and most printers have it as a standard option. (Games currently using this size include Sorcerer and With Great Power. As for the two European sizes, I don't have a lot of information on that, but Eero's post seems to be on the mark there.

- Clinton
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Peter Nordstrand on February 25, 2008, 07:48:22 AM
Yes, the A series is one of the most common formats. In fact, United States, Canada, and parts of Mexico, are the only industrialized nations in which the ISO standard paper sizes (to which the A series belong) are not widely used. Or so I'm told.

The standard size for letters in many (most?) parts of the world is A4, and the A5 is half of that. However, historically A5 has been an unusual size for printed books, for various (good) reasons. Simply put, the pages are wide and give a static impression, and they invite the use of too wide text rows (too long rows are hard to read), or font sizes that are too large to read comfortably.

I suggest that you don't use A5, but pick a format that has a greater width to height ratio. Oh, and while Eero is right about most things, don't choose book size based on what you think would make retailer's happy.
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: David Berg on March 10, 2008, 07:14:24 PM
Eero, Clinton, Peter -- thanks!  I'm leaning toward comic book size, but still pondering.

Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on February 25, 2008, 03:17:27 AM
a large reason for picking a particular book size is that you want to express the nature and use of your product with it

I have a very fuzzy idea of how this works -- at first glance, it seems hopelessly subjective to me.  (Well, except for putting a movie-like game in a VHS box, that's just fucking brilliant.)  I'd love to discuss this further.

Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on February 25, 2008, 03:17:27 AM
a small book is easy to transport and read everywhere, so it implies a product which you might want to read, but would not need to refer to so much during play. A large book might be large because it's easier to use for reference

That's interesting, my first thought was "portable = reference".  Is your point that, when finding a look-up table or some such, it's easier to flip through 100 large pages than 200 small pages?

Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on February 25, 2008, 03:17:27 AM
or perhaps because it has pretty pictures and other aesthetic considerations on its side

I'm leaning large partly for the option of having a two-column page where (1) a reader-friendly (i.e. not too small) font size can wrap well in a half-page column and (2) pretty pictures can be big without needing to squeeze out all text.

I also plan to use some comic book panels from time to time in my play examples, so the comic book size might be apt in that respect.  However, my game is "serious" as RPGs go, and I worry that consumers' "comic book" associations will predispose them against such seriousness.  (Though maybe the "comics are just lighthearted kiddie fluff" attitude is finally nearing its overdue extinction...?)
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Eero Tuovinen on March 10, 2008, 09:29:05 PM
Expressing product nature with choice of medium
Consider the following examples in addition to my zombie movie game:
I hope these examples were useful.

Reference books
What makes a large book easier as a refererence is that you have more space for variability and illustrations, which makes individual spreads easier to distinguish at a glance for the person leafing for the right place. Likewise, you have more freedom to put each individual important thing on it's own spread, so that the reader does not need to turn pages while working with one specific subject. Having less pages overall helps as well, as does the ability to have more prominent navigation aids such as the page header. All these things combine to make it easier to leaf through a large book you're familiar with and find something quite quickly compared to doing the same with a small book. While I like Dead of Night for how it looks when you leaf through it before purchase, for instance, after playing it I'd say that it would have benefited greatly from being larger as far as usability goes. Things are difficult to find in the book, and while there's not many of them, the first session of play is difficult for that.

("Reference" here means a book that you look up things in, if that was not clear. It has to be friendly to random access output, in other words. Being portable doesn't really come to it when we're discussing a rpg reference you use at a gaming table.)

Comics
If you don't want to fight the war against perceptions, it's pretty easy to sidestep the comic book thing: just have captions below the pictures instead of word balloons, and people will, for contextual reasons, associate your work with high art instead of comic books. At least that's how it works around here. Of course that does not help if you wanted to have the illustration associated with comics in the first place.
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: David Berg on March 22, 2008, 01:53:23 AM
Eero,

Thank you so much for the examples!  That really helped open my eyes to the breadth of factors to consider here.  I think that I need to finalize a few larger decisions about my product's look before I can worry about page size.

My game may well be more accessible to D&D players (disgruntled ones, anyway) than to Narrativist Forge folk.  My setting, at least, is the kind of thing that a lot of D&D players like.  I am pondering presenting my game in accordance with the general "fantasy game" aesthetic.  I was wondering if you have any sense of whether a small-press black-and-white game (with a kickass color cover!) would benefit from resembling such "established" company or be more likely to get lost because of it.

I realize this may all be too hypothetical for feedback; I am fully prepared to accept a, "Gee, I dunno, I haven't seen your game!"  But if you do have an opinion, I'd love to hear it!

Thanks,
-David
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Ben Lehman on March 22, 2008, 01:58:58 AM
Bliss Stage is sized based on a manga collection. Since manga collections actually vary widely in size, it's based on a particular manga: the Japanese edition of MARS. This is, believe it or not, pretty important to the game. I'm touchy like that.

But if you don't have an "oh my god! My game must be this size!" thing, can I recommend digest (8.5 x 5.5 - 9x6), "comic book," or good lold 8 1/2 x 11? That is, if you plan on printing your game in the US. In Europe, best to use an ISO size.

yrs--
--Ben
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: Eero Tuovinen on March 22, 2008, 04:37:14 AM
D&D replacements have been published successfully in smaller sizes, but personally I'd recommend the usual 8½x11 if your game has equipment lists, spell lists or any other reference-type materials. There's not much reason to be different-looking just to be different-looking. Being black and white is not that much of a drawback, either. You might wish to study the old Chaosium look if that's the kind of game you're making; looking distinctively like a BW Chaosium game can't be bad for the traditional market, insofar as layout goes.

Of course, other concerns might override the good ol' look. Modify to taste.
Title: Re: page size questions
Post by: David Berg on March 24, 2008, 11:01:27 AM
Ben,
Thanks for the recommendations!

Eero,
I do have price lists for gear.  I also have some one-page modular setting elements that could probably benefit from extra room for details.  I haven't seen any Chaosium stuff, I'll see if I can find some.  Thanks!

After looking through a ton of d20 products, I'm now leaning toward 8.5x11.  It seems very utilitarian, and I don't have any aesthetic priorities trumping that.

I noticed in my d20 perusals that the pages are a little wider and with more gutter space in the hardcovers, but it looks like the "content area" of the page is about the same as in the softcovers.  So I figure I can go ahead and define my content area before picking hard/soft... if anyone knows of some reason why this is a bad idea, please let me know!

I also noticed that "8.5x11" usually meant about 8.25x10.75.  Is that to be expected?  Should I leave extra margin space (beyond what I'd already leave) to account for that?