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Inactive File => Endeavor: Ronnies 2011 => Topic started by: Ron Edwards on December 15, 2010, 06:25:14 PM



Title: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 15, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Hello!

This threadís for any and all questions about how the Ronnies will proceed.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Troy_Costisick on December 16, 2010, 04:39:12 AM
Heya Ron,

I'm very excited to hear you're doing the Ronnies again.  It was a major growth moment for me back in 2005.  I have a question.  In the sticky, you wrote, "Your actual game creation should be conducted within 24 hours."  I'm asking about the word, "creation" here.

Can a game that relies on some OGL or Creative Commons set of mechanics (D20, TSOY) qualify?  Or does the author have to create all the rules and mechanics from scratch?

Thank you,

-Troy


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 16, 2010, 06:18:37 AM
Hi Troy,

That's a good question. By "create," I'm talking about a role-playing game authored by you (the submitter) that might meet the standards I mentioned. It seems to me that using Creative Commons, OGL, et cetera material does not violate those standards, so that would be permitted.

However, that means I should clarify what I mean by "authored by you." As I see it, that means that you would have made the absolute best choice you could regarding those two terms and how you have decided to relate them, specifically in terms of the rules. It is possible that in those circumstances, using (say) the Solar System or original TSOY would be exactly perfectly right.* But I will be subjecting that decision to my own judgment.

Here's something to add to that regarding D20. Unlike TSOY, their open license contract stipulates that certain design features be left unchanged - six attributes, and a few other things. For purposes of the Ronnies, it is up to you to decide whether you will accept these stipulations as productive constraints or violate them, rendering your design "inspired by D20" rather than in accord with the OGL. Either is acceptable to me in principle, but that judgment I mentioned applies to this too.

That idea applies to a lesser extent to the details of any open license framework one might use. For instance, if you were to use the Solar System, I would probably consider it lazy, and more importantly, uncritical design, if you simply slotted everything you had in mind straight through the exact options and exact menu of Keys and whatnot that Eero provided. I'd expect you to work with the Solar System, not merely copy from it. (And all this said with the proviso that if, somehow, your concepts were so brilliantly tuned to exactly what is provided in the Solar System, then it would in fact be the best design choice to use what was provided. But that's subject to my judgment regarding the award.)

Best, Ron

* For instance, I am working on an elaborate setting and play-design using TSOY/Solar System right now. I wouldn't be doing that unless I thought that that system's features were not already well-suited, even ideally-suited for it.


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ben Lehman on December 16, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
So, uh, when are you actually going to start?


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 16, 2010, 08:50:50 PM
Hi Ben,

It's in the main thread, but there's nothing wrong with emphasizing it here. My current thinking is not to compete with the holidays, so January 1st is probably the best bet for the start. I figure a little clarification and prep time here might help too.

You've probably noticed that the timing is a little different, capping out the number of entries. I'm trying to avoid the burnout that kicked in so hard the last time, and which hampered my ability to mentor many designs further in the case of several authors who didn't receive it, especially in terms of playtesting.

Ummm ... on a related note, you wouldn't consider working up On the Ecology of the Mud Dragon (with art), would you? Maybe for a free download or something.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Vulpinoid on December 18, 2010, 09:35:20 PM
I'd love to participate, but my email and general internet access is getting really erratic lately. I could generate something up in 24 hours, but can only access the internet twice a week (at best), so I probably wouldn't be able to post up my work until six days had passed.

I don't know how that would affect my eligibility for the contest, especially if feedback becomes a concern.

I've got a few ideas kicking around that just need a touch of creative spark to set into motion.


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 19, 2010, 06:45:01 AM
Hi Michael,

That might not be a problem. Keep me informed about when you've actually finished the submission. If you finish it within the round's duration, then I'll accept it from you when access allows. If you're in the continental U.S., we can communicate by phone. If there are some circumstances that make communication especially difficult (military deployment, imprisonment; don't laugh, these have been issues before) then let me know by private message.

Also, to clarify, there's no feedback during the period of submission or prior to getting the reward. This doesn't follow the Iron Game Chef sequence. It goes like this:

- period of submission, during which people make games in 24 hours apiece.
- closure of the period of submission, with either of two criteria described in the main thread
- assignment of the award(s) with minor comments on the general performance
- unscheduled and extensive discussion of the games, with at least one thread for each

So the main work is actually done after the awards are known.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Callan S. on December 23, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
Perhaps this is a question that just occurs to me, but is the 24 hours just in terms of getting down to scratching on paper or hitting keys/working up a document? As ones brain is probably going to come up with stuff beforehand. Possibly even drawing on stuff from quite some time prior. Probably the answer is just a "Yeah, that", but it's worth clarifying.


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 23, 2010, 08:02:46 PM
Hi Callan,

Totally legitimate question. Jake VanDam asked it in the original rounds. From November Ronnies! Start your engines for the 6th (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=17520.0):

Quote
... I already have a basic rules set that I've been working on, and have grown quite attached, which raises two concerns:

1. I will slip into that kind of rules structure, which seems to be against the spirit of a 24 hour rpg.
2. I will be so concerned with making it not resemble that basic stucture in any way that it would get in the way of good design.

At what point should I draw the line on #1? Is there any advice on avoiding #2?

And my answer hedged so bad it's practically a whole designer landscaping shrubbery project:

Quote
unfortunately there isn't any good answer.

On the one hand, the goals of the 24-Hour activity (and by extension the Ronnies) aren't met simply by shoehorning a new setting or whatever onto a pre-existing system framework.

On the other, if that framework is still in development, especially early development, then the 24-Hour activity can help you get it into the shape it needs to be, or help you try it out in a more focused way.

Speaking for myself, I don't especially value the "originality and insta-inspiration" ideal when it comes to game design - I actually think it paralyzes the game designer more often than it helps. However, I do value the focus and specific insights that come from putting as much of the game design process into the 24 hours as possible.

Ultimately, that question has to be answered by you alone. I'm willing to accept your submission based on your commitment to producing, here and now, the best possible game design you can. Even if you work with some material you have sitting around already, my hope is that during the 24 hours, you'll be willing to twist, break, and re-design any aspect of that material that you see fit, in order to meet the goals of generating that best possible game design for those two terms you choose.

The way I'd put it today is that I recognize that any amount of novel inspiration today may well dovetail nicely with any amount of previously-conceived material you may have on hand. The last bit of the above quote isn't bad. If we're talking about the best design for the kind of play you want concerning those two terms (and their various associations and related terms that you introduce), then drawing upon what you already have on hand is fine - as long as it works and is at the service of the immediate design, rather than the other way around.

Oh, and there was also this rudely harsh bit from The Ronnies, September 2005 (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=16697.0), which is true but I would like to withdraw the implication that a majority of readers here succumb the problem I describe. It was exhibited very strongly by one person and got up my nose at the time.

Quote
People try to make it harder than it is. They re-cast the guidelines as brutal, impossible standards and then hold themselves to them. Here are the most common examples. Let me (be) absolutely clear: All of the following is total bullshit.

"1. Inspiration must arrive during the 24 hours. The entire creative process must be encompassed in those 24 hours. Nothing can arise from any influences, thoughts, notions, or what-ifs that date before that time. You can't even get inspired, then start the clock, 'cause that's cheating too.
"2. You can't even friggin' ask anyone how to do something on your computer, for layout or format or whatever. No, you must lock yourself in a wretched garret and dine on Saltines alone, with only the gifts God gave you.
"3. The rules, setting, and so forth cannot have any antecedents whatsoever in your role-playing history. No! All original, all the time, total innovation, from the moment of inspiration in the 24 hours."

Lest someone misread this list as criteria, let me put it plainly again: All of the foregoing is total bullshit.
Frankly, I think this is a defensive, loser posture: "Oh, I won't cheat. I'm an artist of integrity. [and then, later] Oh, well, see, I couldn't find the time or concentration to do it to the most rigorous standards, and rather than cheat, I'll pass. I could have finished a fine little game, but I won't, because I'm so virtuous." It's an arrant and grotesque way to justify what a big wanker you are being.

Look, people, the point is to make games without having time to second-guess yourself and distract yourself by crusting on a bunch of pseudo-industry crap in lieu of making sure all the parts are there. This is an easy and fun way to make games. Let's say in the future that one of the four words I provide is, oh, beer. Wow! You say. I had an idea for a fun beer-ish role-playing game a while ago, but never did anything with it. Let's see, where's that notebook?

Is that cheating? No, it isn't. It really isn't. Now, if you'd written up a whole notebook worth of beer clans and aggravated beer damage, and just 'ported it from the notebook, that would be against the point. But using the contest to jump-start your original inspiration is totally by the rules at the site. If you've been interpreting the rules at the site in that bullshit way I listed above, you are missing the point.

So, uh, scrub out the ranty tone, and that stands up well today too.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Bret Gillan on December 27, 2010, 01:53:43 PM
So our game should be a 24-hour design but can designed/submitted anytime before the deadline?

Meaning I can design my game on the 3rd (assuming the deadline hasn't hit before then), it just needs to be done in 24 hours and is on the good old honor system?


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 27, 2010, 05:37:14 PM
Yeah, that's right!

I'll provide the four terms on January 1st, which kicks off the submission period.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: David Berg on December 30, 2010, 07:05:50 PM
Hi Ron,

You said, re: the words, "The two you choose need to be central to the game in some fashion."  Could you elaborate on this?

I get a vague sense of a "design to spec" challenge, but am fuzzy on doing that when the spec is so broad. 

Let's say a word is "phoenix" and I get inspired by that to do something about rebirth, and wind up making a game about robots who've uploaded the consciousnesses of dead people.  Does that count as "phoenix" being "central"?

On the other hand, I could make a game where everyone plays a phoenix.  By your judging standards, is that likely to fit better?  Worse (for lack of subtlety/originality)?

Thanks,
-David


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: M. J. Young on December 30, 2010, 08:10:14 PM
I admit to being interested, even intrigued.  It's the 24-hour thing that causes me to hesitate, for what is probably a different reason.

My days are generally rather packed.  I've got deadlines on two articles per week (I'm the Time Travel Movies Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-15701-Time-Travel-Films-Examiner) at The Examiner.com, and a ton of unpredictable real-life and online obligations.  If I can get twenty-four free minutes out of twenty-four hours, it's a light day.  I rarely write a forum post uninterrupted.  So while twenty-four hours sounds like plenty of time to create a game, I find myself saying with Steven Wright, "Not in a row."  It sounds like fun, but I might drop in next Thursday, pick up the words, Friday morning write a hundred words on an idea that has coalesced, and not get a chance to get back to it again until Tuesday.

That sounds like it would violate the twenty-four hour rule.  I'm not sure, though, how I could avoid doing so--I don't have days off, and if I did my wife would lay claim to them rather quickly.

So how strictly should this twenty-four hour rule be interpreted?  I know you said that the time limit was there to prevent us from second-guessing ourselves and forcing us to make quick decisions to get things together.  If it were a competition it would be unfair for me to have the weekend to think about it, even intermittently.  But since I can never know when I sit down to type whether I am going to have several uninterrupted hours or five minutes after which I won't be able to return to the task for a few days, I can see the twenty-four hour rule killing me pretty easily.  Everything I write involves picking up where I left off a day or more ago, done in fragments that hopefully coalesce into a complete coherent work.

So I guess I'm asking whether not having more than five or ten minutes a day to focus on such a project automatically disqualifies me.

Thanks.

--M. J. Young


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 31, 2010, 06:40:49 AM
It does, unfortunately. The 24-hour period is fixed by the clock. It's not that it takes 24 hours to do it, out of 48 or 72 or whatever, but that it was done in that particular span.

See what happens during the submission period. Since there's no sign-up or prior commitment phase, there's no reason to say one way or another at this time. In the past, any number of people who talked smack about what they would do failed to submit, and any number of people who said they probably couldn't discovered that they could.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: David Berg on December 31, 2010, 12:31:05 PM
Hey Ron, didja see my post?


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 31, 2010, 03:44:00 PM
Whoops, thanks Dave - I did miss your post.

Here are some of my notions about your question. #2 is probably the most direct answer, but the points are all related.

1. The issue isn't originality vs. not, but rather good or not.

2. Any understandable interpretation of a given term is all right. The limit to "understandable" vs. "oh come on" is only found in my head, but I assure you it's very generous. As long as I can see how you got to that use of the term, it doesn't matter whether I would have gone that way myself.

3. Sometimes the most important thing isn't the specific term, but how the two terms relate (for you), and what other terms or game-ideas crop up according to that relationship.

I hope that helps. One of the most important parts of the Ronnies, to me, is seeing the incredible variety of term-interpretation and usage, so go where you will.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Callan S. on December 31, 2010, 09:05:10 PM
Oh, could anyone recommend a free PDF converter they use/trust. I honestly don't know of any and would prefer to use one someone else has (a free one :) )


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 31, 2010, 09:28:20 PM
Damn good question. I found this one through sheer Google luck some years ago and it's always treated me well: PDF Converter (http://www.freepdfconvert.com/). But my experience is an uninformed anecdote and anyone with a more knowledgeable perspective should weigh in.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ante on January 01, 2011, 01:43:15 AM
OpenOffice can export to PDF and can read MS Word and a bunch of other formats, it might be a good alternative to start writing in as well. Quite decent price as well.

I have used the same converter as Ron once as well.


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: David Berg on January 01, 2011, 11:53:21 AM
Thanks, Ron, that was quite helpful.


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Callan S. on January 03, 2011, 09:34:59 PM
Didn't really absorb the rules before - there can be more than nine entries? It's just on the ninth a 24 hour countdown occurs and further entries are accepted, as long as it's inside that countdown?

Nice PDF converter, BTW. Ta! Now I look like I know what I'm doing...


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on January 03, 2011, 11:56:42 PM
You have the rules correct. And since your entry is the ninth, the last 24 hours starts now.

Best, Ron


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Phil K. on January 04, 2011, 08:25:39 AM
Re: PDF conversion

I have to make PDFs all the time for work and have gained some knowledge on this the past few years.

Mac users: you can convert any document that can be printed into PDF. At least since Tiger (OS X 10.4) there has been a drop-down box in the lower-left corner of the print dialogue that will let you save a document as a PDF. It's one of my favorite features of Mac and one that seemingly gets overlooked by most users.

PC users: if you have a bunch of documents that need to be converted quickly, look for Ghost PDF. It's a postscript printer driver that spits out PDFs. The nice thing about this over most PDF creators I've found is that you can actually set it as the default printer for your computer and then print multiple files (high light the files in Explorer, right click, select 'Print') for a speedy conversion.

If you happen to be lucky enough to own Acrobat Pro for either OS, part of its installation includes a postscript PDF printer driver.

-Phil


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Troy_Costisick on January 05, 2011, 09:55:19 AM
Heya,

Ron, will this new set of Ronny Awards have the two levels of winners (High and Low) that the previous set had?  Or will there only be one level of winners this time?  If I missed this in the rules or in the questions somewhere, I appologize.

Peace,

-Troy


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Baxil on January 05, 2011, 11:53:28 AM
One thing that I appreciated about this year's Game Chef is that, even though I didn't make the finals, I was engaged through the whole event, because I got to drag my gaming group into playing a few of the finalists (which ended up expanding everyone's horizons a little, and being instructive toward my own game design efforts as well).  Is there anything similar planned in terms of audience participation?


Title: Re: Questions, concerns, befuddlements
Post by: Ron Edwards on January 05, 2011, 02:40:35 PM
Hi everyone,

Troy, I'm biting the bullet and going back to the original notion that there's Ronnies vs. not, so no high or low. The money amount ($50) reflects that as well, I think. It was actually a very hard call to make in application, but I do think it's both fairer and clearer in the long run.

Baxil, I am hoping that people will act to playtest the Ronnies entries that interest them the most, on their own initiative. As I see it, if that doesn't happen on an ongoing basis at the Forge anyway, for whatever games are in development, then the site's purpose is failing.