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Author Topic: Perception and mind sensing  (Read 2074 times)
Trevis Martin
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Posts: 514


« on: December 13, 2008, 12:29:50 AM »

Hi Ron,

I have what amounts to a doppelganger demon in a game I'm running.  I know there is a general injunction, both in Sorcerer and in various places on the board against mind reading.  And I think I understand why, we need to be uncertain of the intentions/truth of others, right? 

So here's the question.  I'm wanting to use Perception as a sort of 'mimic' power in the sense that the doppelganger can read people for how he's supposed to act (according to their expectations).  But that's it.  Cover doesn't quite fit the bill because it's imitating a specific person and cover only addresses profession and social status.  I already gave it Daze, so it could sort of confuse people.

What do you think?
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Peter Nordstrand
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2008, 05:31:35 AM »

Well, I'm not Ron (which doesn't bother me, and probably pleases Ron). Anyway.

Finding out secrets is hardly an issue. Mind control is, but since your problem isn't aimed at controlling the actions and choices of other characters by taking over their minds, you need not worry.

Perception (quirks and mannerisms) is a valid Power. So is Cover (con man), and Cover (impersonator), by the way.

Cheers,

/Peter
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Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
     —Grey’s Law
Ron Edwards
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2008, 07:32:47 AM »

Hi Trevis,

I'm confused because you seem to be asking two questions: first, how to build a doppelganger-type demon, and second, something about mind reading and perception. I don't understand how those are connected. If you could explain a little bit more about what the demon is supposed to be like and what it does, then I can help you put it together.

Regarding the mind issue, however, Peter's right, but I'll direct his points a little more: I've never said anything against telepathy in Sorcerer. There is no injunction against it. That's another one of those "Ron says" falsehoods that I ought to collect in a little book.

Treat telepathy as Perception, and if you keep it subject to all the rules of the ability and game, it'll work fine.

Again, I have no idea what that might have to do with a doppelganger demon, though, so I'm pretty sure I'm not answering your primary question.

Best, Ron
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Alan
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2008, 08:54:21 AM »

In our Charnel Gods game, we made a doppleganger using Perception: the memory of the body duplicated.

See http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=5940.0

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- Alan

A Writer's Blog: http://www.alanbarclay.com
Trevis Martin
Member

Posts: 514


« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2008, 11:18:51 AM »

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Alan, that's a pretty good definition.

On p. 54 under the Perception power it notes:

Quote from: Sorcerer
The effect can be aura reading, infrared vision, smell or whatever, but not telepathy or "mind-sense" of any kind.
  So that's where I'm getting that, perhaps I'm misreading?

Background on the game.  It's a Sorcerer and Sword game inspired by, but deviating significantly from the manga Nausicaa and the Valley of Wind  The main demons are giant insects and ancient biotech.

The demon is a sort of clone of the ruler of a small province.  It was originally summoned to be a stand in for the original man.

As the power relates to the doppelganger demon.  I want the demon to imitate a specific person.  Cover deals with social status, background or profession, so I didn't think it covered specifics of an individual.  So I thought I could give the demon a form of perception defined as being able to read how others expect it to act, to give it a greater chance of fooling close associates of the imitated person.  Does that make sense?

I did look at the doppelganger build in the rulebook.

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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2008, 01:16:27 PM »

Hi Trevis,

You're right and I'm wrong. Perception isn't supposed to be about telepathy. I owe you an explanation for how to deal with thought-communication or mind-scans and that sort of thing in a Sorcerer context.

However, as far as I can tell, though, that isn't relevant to your doppelganger concept, which is what I'd like to work with right now. You don't need the telepathic solution; the real solution is a lot easier.

Basically, define the demon as Passing as that person, with a suitable Cover (probably the same as the person's Cover) and you'll be fine. I am assuming here that such a concept is consistent with how you're conceiving of sorcery and demons in this game - both Passing and a strong odor of deceit should be understood among everyone playing as common elements. As long as that's in play, then the description of the Cover ability (which, you're right, is stated as a general rather than specific thing) can be tuned toward this end. Using prior knowledge that the person has can be handled as a basic Lore roll, i.e., don't explain it, but there's still a chance to fail.

There will be certain consequences. For instance, the demon won't be able to pass as anyone except this person, and may well think that it is the person.

I hope that helps!

Best, Ron
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angelfromanotherpin
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Posts: 135


« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2008, 04:46:28 PM »

I use Passer (specific character name) for fetches in my games.
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-My real name is Jules

"Now that we know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine how many angels are dancing, at a given time, on the head of a given pin?"
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angelfromanotherpin
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2008, 04:48:18 PM »

Oops, meant Cover (specific character name).
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-My real name is Jules

"Now that we know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine how many angels are dancing, at a given time, on the head of a given pin?"
"What if angels from another pin engaged them in melee combat?"
Trevis Martin
Member

Posts: 514


« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2008, 01:51:26 AM »

Interesting and unexpected.

I admit that I never thought of simply defining the passing demon as passing as that particular person.  I always thought of passing demons as demons that pass as a general class of something, i.e. this demon passes for human, cat or whatever.  There isn't anything in the rules against defining a passer as passing as a particular individual rather than a class.  That seems to be something that consistently throws me with Sorcerer.  I consider what the text says you can do, but I have a harder time considering what the text doesn't say you can't do, if that makes sense (And, I'll admit that tendency probably comes from personal gaming experience baggage).  It's disconcerting because it's like having solid walls that you are leaning against suddenly disappear.

So to follow up:
I owe you an explanation for how to deal with thought-communication or mind-scans and that sort of thing in a Sorcerer context.

What about dealing with thought-communication or mind scanning and that sort of thing in Sorcerer?  Perception would seem to be the candidate Demon ability, but it specifically says no in the text. 
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