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46709 Posts in 5588 Topics by 13297 Members Latest Member: - Shane786 Most online today: 36 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Finishing up  (Read 8414 times)
Ron Edwards
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« on: May 08, 2012, 06:48:18 AM »

Hi,

We're in the final weeks! The closure is still on schedule for June 1.

I was thinking of opening a "Bye!" forum, sort of like the old Birthdays forums, for anyone's closing statements, during the final week or so. Since I was apparently the sole person in the universe who disliked those forums, this was one of those "boy everyone will love it" vs. "shit I hate that" moments. I'm probably going to do it, though.

If I do, I think I will take great pleasure in sinking any posts that annoy me for any reason during that time ... in fact, maybe even moving them to yet another temporary forum called "My head won't fit up my ass but I'm trying" or something like that. Or maybe that will remain a lovely dream, and I won't.

What's coming after

Sooner or later, this domain name will house a big wiki. Its main page is a graphic of the Big Model. You can click on any layer and that takes you into the standard wiki pages with explanations, including nested terms, cross-references, and links to the original discussions. The current Forge and the pre-2008 Forge Archive will remain exactly as they are (including articles), but closed to posting, and the wiki basically dips into them, and you can navigate around in them just as you can now, if you want.

I'd like to generate access to some publishing insights and to some "how this game started" thread families as well, but I'm still thinking about how to do it. Maybe those will be part of the wiki, maybe not.

I'm also not psychologically able to stop forum-style posting, I think. So the Adept Press forum will be housed at my own site, and I think I'll have both Actual Play and Game Design get rolling there too - but more in a personalized, Anyway style of discussion format. I'll be posting about my own play experiences and my own game designs, and encourage others to do the same if they feel like getting my input or input from anyone else who happens to frequent the site. I have no idea what sort of demand for this may exist out there.

Questions & concerns are welcome.
Best, Ron
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Erik Weissengruber
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Posts: 601

Designing "In this Sign, Conquer:


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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 07:45:53 AM »

A question on process:

Did you think it would it have taken a decade + to get tot he point where you could present the big model in wiki form?

And, looking back, did you really need the forums to work out the big model in its final form?  I remember Charles Olson saying something about participating in an "institution" like a college to be able to think, and that solo reflection didn't allow him to do the "thinking" he wanted to do.

Did the Forge work that way for you?
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 11:57:51 AM »

Hi Erik,

I didn't have any plans or expectations for a summary or conclusion site back when Ed and I founded the Forge (then Hephaestus' Forge), nor when Clinton and I revised it. Nor did I aim toward such an inclusive model from the start. I did want to generate a useful cross-reference of goals with methods among a community of people interested in designing and publishing games, and I knew we'd have to clear out quite a thicket of misinformation and habitual falsehood to do so. But my plan or at least my personal goal was to get that established fairly early and to move on to discussing and refining techniques in the context of making new games.

All of which did happen, but I certainly didn't expect that the cross-reference part would generate so much fury over identity politics, clouds of horse-shit-dust, and periodic across-the-internet tantrums, at all, let alone persist. I was and am still astounded that anyone cared so much, and given that they did, I would have greatly preferred to have been written off as marginal from the start, at least about that stuff. I guess it all arose from the fact that many, many more people were indeed having a lot less fun than I would have believed back then, and were simultaneously invested in and resistant to the concepts.

By contrast, I'm really happy that the site brought independent RPG publishing out into the light as fast as it did; that was the part I expected to be slower.

The discussion context was incredibly important. That's why I'm trying to preserve the history through the links, and to permit anyone to decide whether what's in the wiki really is the best conclusion given what was discussed, to give credit to the authors of crucial concepts and innovative techniques. I think I did my part for both, but I certainly wasn't alone, and even stuff that I can claim authorship for wouldn't have arisen in the first place without others' ideas or challenges.

Best, Ron
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 05:02:52 PM »

Ron,

Do you have a secret list of "Best of" threads that you personally have referenced over the years?  If so, any plans to share such a list with those who happen upon the site after it closes?

Peace,

-Troy
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 06:31:52 AM »

Hi Troy,

I have no secret list. I typically run searches to find threads I need when I compose complex replies, and it so happens that a few do continue to be used a lot because the searches keep including them. Moreno's summaries in the Archives forum are finding a lot of those too.

The wiki includes links for the various terms and ideas, which will necessarily produce a best-of archive, I think. Suggestions will always be welcome, but it would be most helpful to wait until you can see what's already there. Or you can join Moreno in thinking of an interesting topic, then compiling a list of links in the Archive section. You can bet I'm going to those to help with the wiki.

I also plan to compile and organize actual play links for others' games to showcase at the Adept Press site (links for mine are already there), as well as a Ronnies summary in some detail.

Best, Ron
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David Berg
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Posts: 997


« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 09:57:42 AM »

I'd like to generate access to some publishing insights and to some "how this game started" thread families as well, but I'm still thinking about how to do it. Maybe those will be part of the wiki, maybe not.

I think it'd be pretty cool to have some sort of ordered checklist of publishing steps on the wiki.  Not an authoritative how-to, just a sensible and typical example, like:

0. before publishing (game design, decisions on marketing, identifying an audience or not, kickstarter or not, etc.)
1. form factor
2. copyright, trademark, IP
3. ISBN
4. incorporation
5. print run or on demand?
6. sizing a print run
7. picking a printer
8. order options
9. payment options
10. fulfillment options
11. flooring/warehousing options
12. retail and distribution options
13. taxes

Each step could link to a brief article which would in turn link to (a) a bunch of threads, and (b) offsite links intended to help people stay current.

That'd be immensely valuable, in my opinion.  Might take a lot of work, though...
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here's my blog, discussing Delve, my game in development
Christoph Boeckle
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Posts: 545

Yverdon, Switzerland


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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 03:42:43 AM »

Hello Ron

How about keeping the archive board open longer than the rest to let Moreno (and others) compose a last few archaeological threads? You might even keep it open only for a select few if you're worried about moderating. You'd close that board when the wiki goes up.
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Regards,
Christoph
Ron Edwards
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 06:10:45 AM »

Hi everyone,

David, we're on the same wavelength. I realized that the Forge needs to present a "results page" for more than just the Big Model, although it's not something I'm going to whip together in the few weeks remaining. I'll probably try to lead a group-based project from the Adept site.

Christoph, if I'm reading your post correctly, then I might have to clarify that neither the Forge (current index, 2008-present) nor the Forge (archive (2001-2008) are going to leave the internet. They'll both be available exactly as they are today, with sign-in and search fully available, for whoever wants to use them. They'll simply be closed to posting - just as the archive one is now. The wiki will contain extensive links into them, and will be the main way newcomers can find them, but nothing will stop anyone from linking directly to them and conducting whatever browsing and searching they'd like to do, just as they can do right now.

If you already understood that and were suggesting or asking something else, then let me know.

Best, Ron
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Christoph Boeckle
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Posts: 545

Yverdon, Switzerland


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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 12:26:35 AM »

Sorry Ron, I wasn't very clear. I was talking about the Guide to the Archives board. All instances of keeping open refer only to posting rights, I'm aware that all boards will remain open to reading.
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Regards,
Christoph
Emily Care
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Posts: 1145


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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 04:38:59 AM »

Thanks very much, Ron. These discussions are a great resource, and I'm grateful that you'll keep them available and accessible via a wiki. Looking forward to seeing you on your home forum, too.
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Koti ei ole koti ilman saunaa.

Black & Green Games
Frank Tarcikowski
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Posts: 387

a.k.a. Frank T


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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 12:31:09 AM »

Before the forum closes down, I also wanted to say thank you to Ron, Vincent, and Clinton, but in particular to Ron, for maintaining the Forge all these years. Say what you want about the moderation style but that moderation style has made it possible to have productive, focussed discourse on the internet. I guess that speaks for itself. And having moderated open internet forums myself, I have some feeble idea of what a Hercules labor that must have been.

Cheers, Frank
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BARBAREN! - The Ultimate Macho Role Playing Game - finally available in English
Troy_Costisick
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Posts: 871


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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2012, 03:19:58 AM »

Before the forum closes down, I also wanted to say thank you to Ron, Vincent, and Clinton, but in particular to Ron, for maintaining the Forge all these years. Say what you want about the moderation style but that moderation style has made it possible to have productive, focussed discourse on the internet. I guess that speaks for itself. And having moderated open internet forums myself, I have some feeble idea of what a Hercules labor that must have been.

Cheers, Frank

Yeah, thanks for being strong and changing the RPG industry. It's been a great 11 years. :)

Peace,

-Troy
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Anders Gabrielsson
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Posts: 100


« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2012, 10:42:46 AM »

Thanks to Ron and everyone else who has helped make this place what it's been. I wish you all the best in your future endeavors.
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Judd
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Please call me Judd.


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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2012, 11:21:30 AM »

I...too much.

Thank you.
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Paul Czege
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2012, 12:55:20 PM »

Y'know, before The Forge I didn't know what I was. I thought maybe I was a creatively blocked author. Or worse, a low motivation author. Now I know what I am. The Forge taught me what I am. So, thanks for that. A lot.

Paul
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"[My Life with Master] is anything but a safe game to have designed. It has balls, and then some. It is as bold, as fresh, and as incisive  now as it was when it came out." -- Gregor Hutton
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